Bernie Torme and John McCoy of Gillan and GMT

[HARD ROCK UNIVERSE]

Bernie Torme and John McCoy of Gillan and GMT



If you were to ask someone here in the U.S. to compile a list of the most legendary U.K hard rock/metal bands of the late 70's, early 80's, chances are Gillan wouldn't be on that list. Not because of worth, mind you, since the albums recorded by the band from the period of 1979-82 rank up there with the finest hard rock ever produced. But for some reason, in a baffling lapse of good judgement by American rockers, the band never caught on in a big way, remaining largely an underground phenomenon with their highest placing being at #79 in the U.S. charts. However, in the U.K., the band were massive. Founded by Purple vocalist Ian Gillan and larger than life bassist John McCoy from the ashes of the Ian Gillan Band, they enjoyed incredible success. Their first three albums, 'Mr. Universe,' 'Glory Road,' and 'Future Shock,' went to the Top 10 in England, with 'Future Shock' making it to #2. The band took off on a mercurial run, also placing numerous singles in the U.K. charts, consolidating their stature as one of Britain's most successful hard rock/metal acts of the day.

A key element of the sound was guitarist Bernie Torme, who came aboard to replace axeman Steve Byrd during the recording of 'Mr. Universe.' Influenced by Jeff Beck, Hendrix and fellow Irish guitarists Rory Gallagher and Gary Moore, the Strat-wielding player came up the ranks first in several blues based bands in the early to mid 70's, before turning to a more punk based direction after hearing The Sex Pistols. A rare guitar hero in the punk rock scene, he was brought into Gillan by bassist McCoy and the rest, as they say, is history. His reputation as one of rock's most promising guitarists due to the stint in Gillan and solo work helped him land a gig as Ozzy Osbourne's new guitarist in the spring of 1982. Called upon repeatedly by the Sabbath frontman after Randy Rhoads was tragically killed in a freak airplane accident, he finally accepted, filling in for a series of North American tour dates before deciding it wasn't for him. Later forming Electric Gypsies, ultimately morphing into Torme with future L.A. Guns vocalist Phil Lewis, he went on to release four (2 studio, 2 live) albums with the band. After more strong solo efforts, he formed Desperado with Twisted Sister vocalist Dee Snider, former Iron Maiden drummer Clive Burr and bassist Marc Russell. Snider and Torme wrote and recorded the album 'Ace,' which languished in the vaults until 2006. Add in a slew of session work which showcases his stellar axe work and you've got a catalog which demands attention.

John McCoy started off in the mid 60's London music scene, playing in the beat groups The Drovers and Mamas Little Children before joining the touring band of former Drifters' vocalist Clyde McPhatter. He then joined Maldoon, who opened for Deep Purple in '71, subsequently banding together with the blues based Scrapyard in 1974, the ranks of which also later included Torme. Recruited by keyboardist Colin Towns in '78 when The Ian Gillan Band switched to a decidedly more heavy rock direction, which was reflected by a name change to Gillan, he stayed on until the band's break up in 1982. Post Gillan he recruited Samson vocalist Nicky Moore for the aptly named Mammoth. Although well received while touring with Whitesnake and Marillion, the warm live reception unfortunately didn't translate into big album sales, causing the band to break up in 1989 after just two albums. Afterwards, McCoy went on to session work, both as player and producer, with credits on albums by Torme, Samson, Joey Belladonna, McCoy, Sun Red Sun and Atomic Rooster, effectively retiring from live performance for over a decade.

The year 2006 saw the two reunite for the first time in years, forming Guy McCoy Torme with wildman ex-Bruce Dickinson drummer Robin Guy, which led to a new album, 'Bitter & Twisted,' a slamming slab of heavy rock encompassing the styles of past works while still sounding modern. Think Lizzy meets Motorhead and you've got a general idea what to expect. Recently I had the opportunity to catch up with both Torme and McCoy in England during a lull in the G.M.T. touring schedule, where the topics discussed included not only recollections of the Gillan days and Torme's stint as the initial replacement for the late Randy Rhoads in Blizzard Of Ozz, but also GMT's new album and much more. Read on as we talk the past, present and future of two of the U.K. heavy rock scene's legendary musicians, Mr. Bernie Torme and Mr. John McCoy....


A BIG thanks to both Bernie Torme and John McCoy for doing this interview for Rock N Roll Universe!

Interview and text by Nightwatcher for Rock N Roll Universe

January 14, 2007

[HARD ROCK UNIVERSE]

Rock N Roll Universe : First of all, Bernie and John, we'd like to thank you both for taking the time out to talk with us, we really appreciate it...

Bernie Torme : Thank you, it's a pleasure!

John McCoy : That's fine, thanks for the interest!

RNRU : You have a new album out with Guy McCoy Torme, 'Bitter & Twisted,' which has just been released on your own Retrowrek Records. How do you feel the album turned out, and are you pleased with the response you've received for the album so far?

BT : I'm so pleased, I can't believe it. I've been recording albums since '78, when my first album was recorded, but I don't think I've ever played on an album, or recorded any album that has received such an amazing response. The thing is, we recorded it, and it was just for our own enjoyment. It wasn't actually planned to be a popular album. It was just a case of going and recording an album, just as we are, because it was enjoyable playing together. We've had great press, just amazing press... I just hope that it sells a bit. (Laughs)

JM : Yes, yes and yes. I guess I'm about 90% happy with the way the album turned out. Most of the albums I've done in my life, I've never had one I've felt 100% happy with. There's always something. I think most musicians would say the same, that they wish they'd done that differently, or played a different note or whatever. But from the reaction we're getting from the press, the media and just general fans, they seem to be happier with it even than we are. (Laughs) The reviews and the reaction have just been incredible. I don't think I've ever had so many good reviews upon a release of an album. I've had good reviews in the past for things I've done, but in this case I haven't seen a bad review yet. Everybody seems to like it quite a lot, and considering we're on a small label, with not a big budget for advertising, there seems to be a lot of word of mouth excitement about the band, which is great for us.

RNRU : That's great, it's a fantastic album...

JM : Well, thank you. When I got back together with Bernie, then eventually with Robin, we kind of talked about the way we wanted it to be. To have it a real recording, more of a live recording in the studio with minimal overdubs, just good sounds. I think we've more or less achieved that. What that means is that we can play virtually all the material live, and it sounds as it should. I've been in bands before where there were so many overdubs, extra instruments added onto tracks, that when you went out to play live you either had to hire session musicians to play those parts or do without them. Then it doesn't sound right to the audience. We've both been around a little while now, it's just something that we talked about, to get back to our roots really, of how records used to be made before computers got involved. There's nothing wrong with Pro Tools per se as a recording device, but there's just so much that you can do. You can virtually make records from the first beat up, build it exactly the way you want it to be. But it's not real. That's what we wanted to achieve was kind of a real feel to the album and the band.

RNRU : Do you feel any type of justification, finally getting all these great reviews after all this time?

BT : Well, yes... and no. I mean, I've always... like anyone else who's been in it as long as I have, you become kind of immune to the press. You have to be. Because if you have press, and everyone says, "This is absolutely terrible..fuck off and die," basically, you have to ignore it. It's great having good press, although I don't believe it really, I think I'm still crap. (Laughs) You kind of think, "Well, I haven't changed, they've changed. I haven't changed at all.” Who knows? (Laughs)

RNRU : Perhaps it's just a case of the critics finally just coming around to you, which is often the case...

BT : Yeah, I do think so. Though it's probably also due to a great proportion of the people who do the kind of thing I do are now dead. That's a terrible thing to say, but there are less of us around, so I'm probably appreciated more. (Laughs)

RNRU : You just mentioned the live situation, and you've been doing some gigs with the band as of late. How do you feel that the material has been received by the fans? Are you pleased with the response there as well?

JM : It's been unbelievable once again. People listening to, or reading this, will probably think, "Well, he's going to say that anyway," but it's kind of a magical thing that we've got going. We're so happy with the 3 piece lineup that we've got with Robin Guy. There's kind of a telepathy going on onstage, which may sound a bit hippy dippy, but we somehow have an empathy between us as musicians. Maybe even leaning towards the kind of thing that jazz improvisers would do, only on a different level. We're able to communicate musically with each other. People at gigs have been saying, "It's like you and Bernie are having a conversation musically in the solo." Because the album is an album, and it has the constraints an album's length of time has. But in a live situation we're finding ourselves jamming for quite lengthy periods, as bands used to do. When Bernie and I first played together, that was a 3 piece band. I guess when we were talking about how it could be, we remembered what we enjoyed about the simplicity of it.

BT : It's been absolutely great. Every gig we've played, the people there have loved it. It's been amazing, really has. Again, it's like a new experience for me really, because a lot of the things I've done in the past have been patchy live. It's just great. To me, it's having the confidence to go on, only now with John and Robin, I know I don't have to play just to impress. I just have to play. It's really a nice kind of an aspect of it. I've always felt that I had to play to impress, and if I play to impress, I don't really think I play how I ought to be playing a lot of the time. It's a strange thing, actually.

JM : The bands that you used to see, such as Mountain, Cream, The Grateful Dead... those bands would jam, just feed off each others' musical ideas. That's an influence which somehow got itself into this band. We've got some short, sharp rock songs that just hit hard, but we've also got some stuff that stretches out and allows us to investigate this area of our playing, because I've always been a big, big fan of Bernie. Apart from working with him in various situations, bands and sessions etc, I've always been a big, big fan, and for me he's one of the greats. He makes his guitar talk. He talks with his guitar much better than he talks with his mouth. (Laughs) He speaks to me with his playing, but then I'm just an old fashioned kind of music lover.

RNRU : So you're able to do a lot of improvising onstage then...

JM : Yeah, it's not something that's planned, it just happens, and that's the way we want to leave it. Because new ideas are coming out of those free form jam things that we're doing. That's the thing with the band; we're not turning our ears and minds away from any new ideas. We'll try anything, any kind of area, or musical genre. We've both been in a lot of different styled bands, so has Robin, and it's good to try new things because you never stop learning. The whole thing is really, really enjoyable for me, and I hope the other 2 as well. When you've been around awhile, and played in a lot of bands, done a lot of different projects, you kind of get a little bit jaded. It's difficult to find things that really inspire you. I work in the music industry, and it's hard to maintain that excitement about certain projects. You find yourself doing projects basically for the money. But with this I find it so inspiring that the money is not the number 1 priority for us, it's making the music. We're lucky to be in the situation where we can actually do that.

RNRU : You're able to keep it fresh then...

JM : Yeah. I mean, I believe the album does sound fresh and new. There are influences from all of our past careers. We're going to start recording again in January. We've got a stack of new ideas. We want to try and work through things while it's still fresh and exciting, or before one of us dies or something. (Laughs) There seems to be a lot of old rockers who are disappearing.

RNRU : Bernie, us as critics or journalists can go on about how the album sounds like forever, but how would you describe the band's sound to someone who's never heard it yet?

BT : It's very raw. It's pure, it's exciting. It's just three people playing in a room. It doesn't have a great amount of overdubs on it. It didn't need them. The players on it are all stylistic players. We all have a style. Probably all of us are pretty much instantly identifiable, sound wise. It was basically us playing, as we all do, and that really left no space to put anything on top really. It was just raw, as it is, rock 'n' roll.

RNRU : There's a very "live" vibe to the performances on the record most definitely...

BT : Oh definitely. It all was. There were no click tracks. Really, I don't think any track was more than three takes. It was all pretty instant. I spent most of the 80's trying to do the great, perfect recording, and have a chart or airplay album, and it fucking never happened. What is the point of even trying that? So, basically it was just all of us playing as we play live, excitement instead of perfection.

RNRU : One thing which impressed me concerning the album is the diversity of it all. You have elements of classic metal, punk, extended guitar work outs, more psychedelic type sounds, even some pop and glam influences pop up. I even heard what sounds like a mellotron in "Miss The Buzz". In a way it almost seems to encompass all the phases of your career in one package. Was that intentional at all or is that just how it worked out?

BT : Yeah, it is close to a mellotron on that track. It's a mellotron sample off some damn keyboard that we know nothing about. I won't talk about that, but it is actually a mellotron. (Laughs) The thing is, I've always been kind of a diverse player. Actually, that's probably not true, I'm not a diverse player at all. Because, if I play, whatever it is, an Irish folk tune or whatever, it all sounds as if it's Bernie Torme playing it. What I'm trying to say is, I have a diverse appreciation of an awful lot of types of music. I go all the way back to the 60's and early 70's. What always appealed to me about the bands of that time, Zeppelin, or whoever else, was that they drew upon all sorts of separate influences. They approached it and made it sound like Zeppelin. It was basically that approach. That appreciation of diversity is true of John, and it's also true of Robin. All of us have a very diverse appreciation for different types of music. I've always tried to drag in the feeling of John Coltrane into my playing. To me, it's that dragging in of the diversity of, say, any music on planet earth, and if I play it, it just bloody sounds like me anyway. (Laughs) It narrows it down, and it actually was the opposite approach to the 80's.

RNRU : You mentioned Zeppelin, and that's one thing that made them stand apart was that they didn't go for just one sound, it made it more interesting, versus the 80's style production where you had a very glossy type production where everything began to sound the same, which some can say eventually brought the downfall of that type of music, because it got too sterile sounding...

BT : Yeah, that's right. To me, almost all the things I love are 60's and 70's things. It touches my heart, and it's all pre click track. It's just that everything after 1980 or so was done to a click track. Also, earlier on, even in recording studios, the recording gear wasn't the same in every place, as it is now. It's all SSL or Neve and Pro Tools, and everything sounds the same. It's not very inspiring I don't think. Basically our approach was a jazz approach, the old approach, which was to have the mic's in the room. It was all on Pro Tools, but I didn't do any of the pissing about with it that people generally do. I just used it as a recorder basically. In a lot of ways it's an old fashioned album. That was what appealed to me about recording it. Like how the Elvis 'Sun' sessions were recorded. It was people playing. It has a certain spark, magic and integrity that the minute you try polishing it, making it perfect, it just loses it. I don't know why exactly. I've tried polishing stuff often enough, and it just doesn't happen for me.

RNRU : You look at the history of rock, and a lot of the great songs have been one or two takes...sometimes when you go on tinkering with things for 6 months or so you tend to lose that spark somehow... sometimes technology makes it all too easy...

BT : That is true. A lot of it is, I think, that people don't actually play together anymore. It's become a producer's world rather than a player's.

RNRU : Another aspect about the album that impressed me was concerning the wordplay of the lyrics. There's some really interesting wordplay going on in some of the songs, which is somewhat rare in heavy rock these days. How important are lyrics to you as part of the overall presentation of the music? For many bands it almost seems as an afterthought...

BT : The thing is, in the metal area, in heavy rock, a lot of it, in terms of singing, became awfully operatic. I can't do that, apart from the fact I don't much like it. I'm a shit singer basically. (Laughs) So I have to kind of try and carry it in other areas. Also, being a Dubliner, being Irish, it's part of the culture. Words are… if you go into any pub in Dublin, people talk to you. It's actually an area where an important part of how you operate is how you speak. Not that anyone speaks properly, it's just you have to have an entertaining way of putting things. It's always been important to me in terms of lyrics, that they're entertaining. Not too deep though. A lot of it is just taking the piss out of people, out of life in general. It's what I enjoy. For example, with "Can't Beat Rock N' Roll,” that’s a sentiment I subscribe to entirely. Only at the same time it's kind of a tiny bit of... being Irish, being European, I can't really do that entirely seriously, because I ain't Dee Snider. (Laughs) Whereas, he's able to do that 100%, and it's true, I can't do that. I have to joke about it a little bit.

RNRU : With this album you're back with your old mate John McCoy from Gillan for the first time in many years, since the last Mammoth album that you played on. How did you get hooked back up with John and what is it about him that keeps you two coming back together throughout the years?

BT : The Mammoth album wasn't really playing with John. I ended up going in and repairing solos that had been recorded which they weren't pleased about. I went in for a week or so and replaced a load of takes. It wasn't a project that we put together, not at all. With John, I've known him since '75, when we played in a band playing pubs and tiny places around England. We've always had this special way of playing together, especially if it's kind of a "jammy" track. Because we have kind of a spiritual join. We'll change at the same time, do the same subtle changes without even talking about it. To me, he's the best bass player I've ever played with, he's just great. We have had our ups and downs. (Laughs)

John, until he did this album, hadn't played onstage for about 12 years. He'd basically packed it in. It's just great having him here now, and he plays as amazing as ever. He's just incredible. I've always kept in touch with John. We've always been close as people. We have had our differences, and have had periods where we didn't talk, but you grow out of that. The past 15 years, John called up at New Year's and said, "I haven't sent you a Christmas card, but I'm wishing you a Happy New Year. We really have to get together this year, before we die, and play again.” (Laughs) I'd always say, "Sure John, anytime at all. You just give me a call and I'll be there.” And, it would never happen. Then the next year it would happen again. It'd be, "Hi, it's New Year,” and all of this. Then a guitarist who was a friend of both of us, Paul Samson, died. Then it became, "Oh my God, we've GOT to get together now.”

John phoned up the drummer from Gillan, Mick Underwood, we had a jam and it was great. It was really enjoyable. We had a load of jams, then we tried to record. The recording didn't really happen. I was extremely uneasy about it, because I felt that having John, me and the drummer from Gillan, was a tiny bit problematic, because it was all very much looking into the past. I felt that it kind of... because I get off on drummers, that you have kind of a time span to play with people, and know exactly how they'll play, and if they don't inspire you by doing something extra special, it doesn't result in anything other than plowing the same old furrow again, really. I kind of pulled the plug on it because I felt that I couldn't see it. John said, "Oh, we have to find someone else.” I said yeah, not really believing that would happen. About two weeks after that, I had a band called AntiProduct in, and they had Robin playing on a session, and he was just amazing. He was bouncing sticks off the ceiling and playing in time. He was just incredible. Spectacular, too, really a great player. Because I'm a basic kind of person, I kind of thought, "I have to play with him! He's really great! I like him!" (Laughs) So, I phoned John up, and said "You HAVE to come down.” So he came down, we had a jam, and it was great. It was absolutely instant chemistry. It is one of those situations where we all love each other, but we continually have arguments all the time. It IS part of the chemistry.

[HARD ROCK UNIVERSE]

RNRU : John, what is it about Bernie's playing which keeps the two of you coming back together throughout the years?

JM : I don't know anybody else, and I can honestly say it, that does what he does. I've never heard anybody else play solos like Bernie. There are people that play in a similar way, but not like Bernie. He's got certain things that he can do with that old Strat which I don't hear anyone else doing. He's been doing it for so long that he doesn't realize how good that is. It just happens. To play in a 3 piece situation and for it not to sound empty, you've got to be a certain type of player. He manages to play rhythm and lead guitar at the same time. That's quite a rare ability. He knows exactly what to do in that situation. And he sings well, too. If he reads this his head's gonna be getting too big. (Laughs) But I think he's massively underrated, and deserves a lot more recognition.

RNRU : When I was talking with Bernie he says he basically thinks he's a crap singer...

JM : But that's what he's like. Personally, he's a close friend, so I find that quite charming, but he doesn't even think he's any good. Which is great, because I've been in bands with people who ain't any good but they really think they are. He just does what he does. He doesn't have any misconceptions about it, he just thinks, "Yeah, well, I'm okay,” But I think he's exceptional. Okay Bernie, that'll be 30 quid please. (Laughs)

RNRU : John, you've played in tandem with a lot of drummers throughout your career. How would you rate Robin Guy's drumming compared to all the others?

JM : He's the most exciting drummer I've come across in about 10 years. I've worked with a lot of drummers, but the last couple of guys who were impressing me were American guys. One was a guy named Mike Sciotto, he was with a band called From The Fire. He's done a lot of work, he's kind of a session player. He's a magnificent player. Also Bobby Rondinelli played on some songs of mine for the Sun Red Sun album. Bobby's incredible. Since then I've worked with a few different drummers, but Robin is something very, very special, because not only does he play great but he's a real showman and performer. That's unusual. People over here are comparing him as being the new Keith Moon. He's super tight, and super good at what he does. Very, very intricate playing, very, very straight playing, he can do the lot. But whilst he's doing it, he's a performer. He's entertaining and he's enjoying himself. That's the thing, is we actually enjoy it. How many times can you look around in a band, and the guys smile back? Usually there's some sort of atmosphere within a band, like, "This guy's too loud" or "He's out of tune," there's always something, but we just enjoy it. Believe me, when you see Robin live, that’s a show in itself. He's mesmerizing. He's just so good. It's the same thing as with Bernie, he doesn't have a big head about it. He just does it and enjoys it. Working with me and Bernie, we set things up for him so that he can shine through. We don't limit his performance in any way.

RNRU : Working in the power trio format as you do, it allows all of you to shine...

JM : Yeah. I mean, I just listen and watch the other two. (Laughs) I'm in the best seat in the house. We just did some shows in Ireland, that were really, really good. We played Dublin 2 nights ago, and that was a show for Clive Burr, the Iron Maiden drummer. He has Multiple Sclerosis now. He's in a wheelchair, and so we did that as a charity gig for him to raise money. He's got this charity now called 'Cliveaid'. So we were raising money for that. It was a great show, the house was packed. There were a couple of other great bands on there as well. We had a great time in Ireland.

RNRU : Is GMT going to be an ongoing concern for you?

BT : Oh yes it is. We are starting to record the next album this month, in January. To be honest, it's pretty hard at the moment, because being in rock, it's penniless basically. No one pays you much. (Laughs) It's a labor of love. It's just, to me, John and Robin... although Robin is always playing in about 10 bands at the same time, because he's a drummer, and drummers do that, it's special. We have to do it, because it's so completely joyful and completely instant. It's a situation where you go in, play a track together, then 2 hours later, you have a take of it. That's just great. I love all of that, because there've been an enormous amount of bands that I've been in, in the past, where that hasn't been the case.

RNRU : Will the next album be in the same vein as this one, or will there be any change in direction, musically speaking?

BT : Basically it's the same. Obviously, you can't record the same album twice. So possibly there will be different types of tracks on it. Only, it'll be different types of tracks as played by us. It isn't going to be an attempt to be signed by Sony or whoever. There isn't any point in even trying.

RNRU : Speaking of going in and recording, are there any songs worked out so far that you know are going to be on the next album? Or is it too soon to say?

JM : There are one or two, but no fixed titles yet. We keep the lyrics kind of fluid until right at the end. It's very much a two way thing with Bernie and me when we're writing. Sometimes I'll give him just a riff then he'll turn that into a song. Sometimes I'll give him the whole song, with lyrics, melody, bass and guitar parts, everything finished, and he'll give it a little tweak. It works the other way too. He can sometimes give me a song that's almost finished, and I'll just add a middle section or whatever. Then also we sit down together with just a couple of acoustic guitars and actually write songs together line by line. That's an exciting process because there's an empathy in the writing. We're finding it remarkably easy to get things done, to finish songs and ideas. There's definitely no lack of ideas at all. It's brilliant. We're a bit ahead of the game I guess. The 'Bitter & Twisted' album has just come out and is doing extremely well. But we're not going to be doing any live work in Europe until March. You have to book these things quite a long time in advance. We're going to start doing live shows again in March, so we figured that perhaps we ought to spend January, and maybe some time in February at least, starting a new album, whether we finish it or not. Because we anticipate being very, very busy this year. People are talking to us about the big festivals over here. There are 3 or 4 huge festivals, and we'd love to get to that kind of an audience.

RNRU : That'd be great for the band, and you certainly would benefit from the exposure from doing the festivals...

JM : It's difficult though... like I said before, it's our own label, Bernie's record company, it's very small. But we were offered deals from a couple record companies at the beginning of last year, when we had a few tracks finished, and were playing them to various labels. There were people interested in doing it, but they didn't want to release it until next year. I guess they have to plan it into their schedules. We were a little bit too impatient for that. We wanted to get it out and let people hear it, because we're excited about it. As I say, lots of people seem to be enjoying it. What's your favorite song off the album?

RNRU : Right now I'd say it would be "Can't Beat Rock & Roll.” It's got that ZZ Top gone metal type sound...

JM : Do you know that is a song that came together in about 5 minutes flat? Isn't that great? We just started playing it. Bernie said, "I've got this title, "Can't Beat Rock & Roll," and I've got an idea for the riff and it goes like this.” We were recording it the same day.

RNRU : It's very anthemic. It’d be a great choice for radio to play, if they still played those sorts of songs anyway...

JM : We're not doing too badly, actually, we are getting played. But the national stations as of yet haven't picked it up. But at this time of the year in Britain, we're kind of overrun with Christmas records and Christmas promotions. And really, all you ever hear on the radio are the same Christmas records you've been hearing for the last 20 years. So maybe we should write a new Christmas song for next year. I'll have to talk with Bernie about that. (Laughs)

RNRU : There you go, the G.M.T. Christmas album. When do you anticipate having the next album ready for release?

JM : That would kind of be probably late summer, or autumn. Around the same time. We put this one out in October, and we'd like to get the next one out before a year passes, maybe August or September. In Europe, there are a lot of festivals around that time, and as I said, if we're doing those kinds of gigs we need to get some new product out there. We've got to look at it as kind of a business. We're not very good at it, but... we've learned a lot.

[HARD ROCK UNIVERSE]

RNRU : Bernie, you're part of a long line of incredible Irish guitarists, a line which has included Rory Gallagher, Gary Moore, Eric Bell of Thin Lizzy, more recently Vivian Campbell, and some may argue U2's The Edge. What is it about Ireland which brings out that gritty, rock n roll style of guitar playing?

BT : I actually read something recently about the kind of traditions of folk music in England and Ireland. And England had really no tradition at all of instrumental expertise, whereas Ireland always has. In Ireland, you always had the demon fiddlers, and the pipe players, as you had in Scotland. I think that must've crossed over into the guitar playing. I can remember growing up in Ireland as a teenager, I was 16 or 17, and Rory Gallagher and Taste had just gone on their first English tour. And it was like "Rory Returns, His Triumphant Return,” and I went down and saw him, because I'd only heard him on the radio. And there were about 10 people there. It was like there was nobody there. And he was incredible. In the town I was in, Dublin, he always played regularly. Gary Moore was in a local band, and I could see him repeatedly. I saw him a half a hundred times, and he was amazing. This was when I was a kid. I was only barely able to play, and he was absolutely stunning. There just were an awful lot of great guitar players around. I suppose the kind of competitiveness of it all, to keep up, you had to be a part of that picture. You may not have been able to reach the identical destination, but it marked out the road.

RNRU : You've pretty much used a Stratocaster throughout your career. What is it about the Strat that drew you to that particular guitar versus, say, a Les Paul for example?

BT : Absolutely nothing drew me to it initially. I wanted a Les Paul because I loved the Clapton Bluesbreakers album. Unfortunately, or fortunately, they were rare in Ireland, whereas Strats were commonly used by the show bands and country bands. So I got one for 52 pounds sterling in 68 or 69, I couldn't afford anything else! Having got locked into the Strat it became part of me, I'm the kind of person who works out every thing I can do with the instrument I have, its like the person you live with, I know the reactions and how it goes, good and bad, may not be always good, but it’s part of it, you take the bad with the good and use both. So when I finally got a Les Paul in the 80's I went "Wow" and played it and instantly sounded like Clapton on the Bluesbreakers album: derivative and boring, Eric and Freddie King did it much better. So back to the Strat, never had a deal from Fender, but its a privilege to me, the Stratocaster is the most beautiful thing ever made. Not too clever, a workhorse, you have to fight it, you need thick skin and muscles and a brain to think your way around it. I truly love it.

One of the reasons I don't 100% love the guitars on the Desperado album is that half of the rhythm parts were tracked with a Les Paul. Very 80's thing, but those special things I do on a Strat, guess what, you can't do 'em on a Les Paul. Sounds very solid though.....

A Strat is also a singer’s guitar, you have your little finger permanently tickling that volume pot, don't have to move your hand to control it, and its beautiful naked, and it’s a Saturn rocket blasting off with the right distortion. I love them, most beautiful thing ever made.

RNRU : Now you just mentioned growing up in Dublin. Were you musical from an early age?

BT : No, not at all. I kind of grew up in a family where both parents played piano. My dad played it by ear. Although, having said that, by the time I was born, he never played it at all. (Laughs) I learned it as a child, and I was absolutely terrible at it. I totally bloody hated it. So I kind of took up the guitar at around 11 or 12. It was basically because I was a shy kid. I had a speech thing, a stutter, which I still have, but it was a lot worse as a kid. So as a teenager, I had to try and attract girls. (Laughs) I was thinking, "Well, I can't TALK to them, so play guitar man, that's how to do it!" (Laughs)

RNRU : What was the defining moment for you when you decided to become a musician? Was it because of girls? What brought you to decide, "This is what I want to do in life?”

BT : I don't know... that's a good question. It's a hard question to answer. I think a lot of it, in my case, was the place and time. Because I was 14 in '66, so that whole period, 65...'66...'67, at that point I was definitely in it. It was a very rebellious thing. It was an alternative. I was brought up in a country at the time which was basically run by the Catholic Church. It was very intolerant, very oppressive as well. That whole rock n roll Beatles, Stones, Yardbirds, Animals thing was incredibly attractive. It was cool. I don't actually think that I had a great amount of inate musical talent. I just worked my bloody ass off. Now, it's a strange thing, because I can play more easily than I can do just about anything else on the planet. But I look at it, and I think, "Well, how did I arrive at that?" because no one else in my close immediate family does it. It's a strange thing.

RNRU : So you feel that it's something that you learned rather than inherited, even though your father played piano...

BT : Yeah, I do. Well, perhaps he was amazing, only I never heard him play so I don't really know. (Laughs)

RNRU : Do you remember what the first record was that you ever bought?

BT : Yeah, there were two. It was "Keep On Running" by The Spencer Davis Group and "Till The End Of The Day" by The Kinks.

RNRU : So you were definitely into the whole British Invasion type thing...

BT : Yeah, but having said that, you didn't come across a lot of U.S. stuff over here. You would hear people... in terms of American bands, I suppose The Byrds and Dylan. Those were the first American artists who I was aware of. Both of them I loved. And Otis Redding in 66. I suppose the defining moment, for me, in terms of all of it was The Yardbirds with Jeff Beck.

RNRU : What was it about Jeff's playing that initially drew you to him?

BT : It was just awesome. He was playing solos on "Shapes Of Things" and the b side, "Mister, You're A Better Man Than I,” that were completely untouchable. I'd never heard anyone doing anything like that.

RNRU : There's also a lot of Hendrix influence in your playing as well...

BT : Oh yeah, he was just the best I think. In the beginning, I grew up with Jeff, then I went out and heard Clapton with The Bluesbreakers, and that's just an incredible album. It blew me away. Just around that time, Clapton had joined Cream, and they had a single out, "I Feel Free.” I heard they were going to be on Top Of The Pops. At that time, we didn't have a TV set, so I went over to the neighbor's house, they were a pair of old spinsters. They were sitting there knitting, and I was watching Top Of The Pops. (Laughs) I was just waiting for Eric Clapton and Cream. and Hendrix was on it, it was the first time he'd ever been on TV in Europe I think. I'd never even heard of him before, it was "Hey Joe,” and I thought, "Fucking hell.” I mean, here he was, playing it over his head, with his teeth, everything, and it was like Clapton was just kind of no interest at all after that. (Laughs) I was totally sold on Jimi after that. He was just untouchable.

[HARD ROCK UNIVERSE]

RNRU : John, what was the defining moment in your life when you realized you wanted to become a musician?

JM : I would have to say that was probably about 1959 or 1960. I was probably 8 or 9 years old. I was on a family trip, we went to visit my cousin. He had a band that did like Bill Haley, Elvis and Buddy Holly numbers. Just a local band, but for me it was the first time I'd ever seen anybody with an electric guitar, and it just hit me, really got hold of me. Growing up in the 60's was the best time to grow up, I think, in rock music. Because everything came, from the late 50's and 60's, to me that was probably the most inventive time in rock music. As a kid I was already kind of a musician because I was playing in the school band and just messing around. But when I saw my cousin's band I knew, "That's it," and traded my bicycle for an acoustic guitar. My parents weren't too pleased. (Laughs) Then I just saved up and asked my parents for a Christmas present of an electric guitar, then that was it. I formed a band, and I was playing when I was still in school with this band. We'd go out on the weekends and play in pubs and clubs. I was only like 15 years old.

RNRU : That was somewhat of a beat group right?

JM : Yeah, we just followed the trends of the day. We were only just little kids, and we had Beatle haircuts and Rolling Stones' clothes, then we'd think we were The Kinks, then we'd think we were The Who. But we ended up from being a cover band playing Beatles and Stones numbers, we kind of went a little way towards writing our own material. Just trying to take the thing more seriously. It was school days, a school band.

RNRU : Also around that time you played Air Force bases, is that correct?

JM : That was the second major thing that I did. That wasn't until 1967, '68, I joined a band in the nearest local city from me, which was Leeds, in Yorkshire, in the North of England. I saw the ad in the local paper which said that a professional band wanted a guitarist and bass player. So I went to audition for the job, because at that time I was the lead guitarist. When I got to the audition they said, "Look, we're really sorry, we've just given the job to this guy so we don't need a guitarist. But we're still looking for a bass player. Can you play?" I said yes, never having done that before, but I thought, "Yeah, I can handle that.” I borrowed a bass, then got the job with them. That's when I first started playing bass guitar. We went to Germany, and we'd stay on one Air Force base, or Army base for like a 2 week period. We'd perform in the PX, the store where you get all the stuff, and in the clubs and restaurants there. At the same time we'd go and play in German clubs as well.

RNRU : You also played at The Star Club in Hamburg, where The Beatles had a residency earlier. What was it like playing Hamburg at that time? That area had a rather seedy reputation during that era...

JM : Yeah, we played The Star Club once. That whole area was very, very seedy. That was Hamburg, and that area was like the sex area, the red light district. But I was just a young kid, only 18 years old, and I learned a lot during that trip out there.

RNRU : You came back to London after Germany, where you landed a gig playing bass with The Drifters' Clyde McPhatter. What was that like for you, and what amount of influence do you feel that playing soul music had in developing your playing style?

JM : Well, you seem to know an awful amount about me, I'm impressed. (Laughs) The band that I went to Germany with was a kind of soul revue, with the go-go dancers, and we'd play Stax numbers. Otis Redding, Wilson Pickett, that kind of area. When I did come to London, I was just lucky to walk into that gig with Clyde McPhatter, I guess. It was amazing to get a gig like that. I'd been in London for about 4 or 5 months, and I'd been working in a store in order to pay my rent, then going for music jobs all the time. But then I got this job, and wow, I learned a lot. He was old school professional. He could really, really work an audience. Like those old soul guys like the King, James Brown. There's a certain atmosphere that they can create. To me, that's a dying art. I don't see people around who have that charisma like Otis Redding or Sam Cooke. Clyde McPhatter was more not so hot, he was kind of a little smoother than that. But he had some good stuff, and it was a very tight band. It was hard work, musically.

But that's the best thing, just jump into the deep end. I always say yes to everything, whether I think I can do it or not really. I always say, "Oh yeah, sure I know about that stuff." Because that's how you learn, by playing with other players, some of whom are better, some are worse than you. But you can learn from everyone. Sometimes you don't realize that you've learned until much later. But I just love to play. With the right people it's the most enjoyable thing there is for a musician. If you play music that you actually enjoy, and get paid for it, how bad is that? In another situation I could be working in a factory, or driving a truck. I'm lucky that I've managed to survive somehow from playing music.

RNRU : That being London in the late 60's, that was still pretty much the epicenter in terms of rock music and fashion at the time. What was the music scene like for you being in London during that time?

JM : After the Clyde McPhatter tour had finished, I joined a band called Welcome, which was kind of a Blood, Sweat & Tears, Chicago, a British version of that, one of those bands with a horn section. It was a 7 piece band, and we weren't too bad. We used to work a lot. But we lived in the Kensington area of London. That's where all the great shops were, like Kensington Market, and Notting Hill, that area was a very trendy sort of area. You would see people around that you recognized. We were nobodies, but we felt as if we were in the hub of the action. We were so poor in that band that the whole band lived in one room. We used to have to take turns over whose turn it was to go to bed. (Laughs) We worked for a couple of years, and we struggled along.

RNRU : After that you were in a band, Maldoon, who were signed to Purple Records, and the band did open for Deep Purple during that time. What was that experience like for you? Is that how you came to meet Ian Gillan?

JM : Yeah, with Curtis Maldoon, that was late '71 I think. We were signed to Purple Records, and Purple management. If we went in the offices, and hung around there, sometimes we'd see the guys from Purple. But I didn't get to know any of them that well at that time. When we went and did the support gigs with them, we were the support band. Some people in the band were friendly to us, some weren't. But I was so impressed with that band. I was a fan already, and it was just the best thing to be able to stand at the back or side of the stage and watch that band. Because I still think now, that was THE classic Purple lineup. I don't think it's ever been better. I'm kind of a traditionalist when it comes to rock. To me, the original things are always the best. For me, it can't really be Purple unless Ritchie's there. I know they had their problems, there was tension and all that, but maybe that's what made it work. On the same level, with me, it can't be Purple if Jon Lord's not there. Because he's an integral part of Purple's sound. I know Don Airey, and he does a great job. But he's not Jon Lord. He can't be. Nobody's Jon Lord, and nobody's Ritchie Blackmore. Those 2 together, to me, made the sound of Purple. There's just a magic about that combination, it fit together perfectly with the other 2 Ians and Roger. It was one of those rare, rare bands. When I was with Curtis Maldoon, as I said, to be on tour with them and to be able to see... it's the same thing, it's a learning process. Yeah, that's when I first met Ian. I was already a big fan.

RNRU : Bernie, growing up in Dublin around the same time Thin Lizzy was coming up as well, and they were certainly hometown heroes, and I imagine still are. How much of an impact was Lizzy on you, and what was it like seeing them around that time?

BT : The thing was, Phil Lynott had been in what was the crucial Dublin rock band for my age group, Skid Row (nothing to do with the American Skid Row) with Gary Moore on guitar. This band used to play school dances in the late sixties, and they were truly awesome. Phil was lead singer. So then there was some sort of split of which I don't know the details in the late 60s, and Skid Row became that greatest of things, the power trio! Gary and bass player Brush Shields did the vocals. Phil went off and formed a band called Orphanage, which was very good and cool but maybe a little bit old fashioned, at least I thought so. Phil maybe thought along the same lines, had bass lessons from Brush Shields and formed yet another power trio, Thin Lizzy with Brian Downey and Eric Bell. Weirdly enough, at the beginning of Lizzy in Dublin, they were sort of looked down on because Phil was a sort of instant bass player, and hadn't grown up with his instrument like the rest of us. Dublin always was a bitchy town. But he really was instant, and unlike everyone else, he was also a great writer and singer. Lizzy were always instantly accessible song wise, in a way that Skid Row and the other Dublin bands which I also loved were not.

I supported Lizzy in Dublin a few times, at a club called the Countdown Club and again at the national stadium which was about 1500 capacity I think. They were not that sparkling live at that stage, more workmanlike. But they were a breaking band, and "Whiskey in the jar" was a huge change in that an Irish rock band had success outside of Ireland, that had never happened before. We didn't consider Them or Van Morrison as Irish, they came from distinctly the other side of the fence, Northern Ireland, part of the UK. They wouldn't have described themselves at that time as necessarily Irish anyway, though Van obviously got round that one eventually.

I was in the audience when Lizzy played the National Stadium in Dublin after Eric Bell went astray in Belfast, just after "Whiskey in the Jar" and Gary Moore stood in and they played mostly Jeff Beck Group and Hendrix stuff. I suppose Gary didn't know the Lizzy stuff at that point. That truly was the power trio from hell, one of the best gigs I've ever seen.

They were not really a big band by the time I came to England in ‘74, they were sort of big Celtic cult, playing the Greyhound in Fulham Palace road, but always achieving and moving on. I don't think they made a huge impression on me as players, though I loved some of Eric Bell's stuff. "The Rocker" and "Black Boys On The Corner" had stunning guitar playing, but Phil's achievement was as an originator, writer and creator, and that was huge. That’s what made him different. You know, in the 70's in England the Irish were still sort of looked down on in some strange way, it wasn't that long since the "no blacks no dogs no Irish" signs. Actually having this rock band that could fill Wembley (about 5000 capacity) by ‘77 and be the hippest band in town was a fantastic thing. Doing the stuff Phil did, which was often very personal, small and relating to my home town, was also very special.

That and seeing him at Wembley sayin’, "Are there any girls out there with a little bit of Irish in them?" Roar and every girl in the audience puts her arm up, and he then says after a pause, "And are there any girls out there who'd like a little bit more Irish in them?" Mayhem! Fantastic stuff!

[HARD ROCK UNIVERSE]

RNRU : You ended up moving from Dublin to London, where you started playing in bands there. In '74 you began playing in Scrapyard, who were more of a heavy, blues based band, as were several of the other bands you were part of during your early days. What was it about blues based music that attracted you?

BT : I don't know, to be honest. It was just what I was brought up on in terms of electric music I suppose. It's a strange thing, because I have a bit of a problem about it these days. I don't feel like I can play blues at all, because I'm European, I'm Irish, and I'm white. It seems so plastic if I play it. I do enjoy playing it, but it just doesn't seem real if I play it. I've had a lot of people in the past say, "Do a blues album.” And I just cannot do it. I respect people who do it, but it's just not something that I feel I can do. I was able to do the heavy-ish blues thing, because it was what was going on around me at the time. It just seems that if I were to do it I'd be pretending.

BT : From those roots, you formed The Bernie Tormé Band, which was very punk based. How did you make the journey from playing heavy, blues based music to punk?

BT : It was complete opportunism I think. At the time, it was what was happening. Having said that, at the beginning I was completely against it. I'd heard The Damned, and I hated them, I love them now, but I hated them at that point. Then I heard The Pistols, and I just adored it. To me, that's heavy rock, not punk. It's a name. "Anarchy In The U.K." was as heavy as anything. I was able to relate to that, and I considered that to be more genuine at the time than what was going on, which was Yes, and the whole Genesis type thing, which I wasn't into at all. I just found it too intellectual, and not emotional enough. The Pistols had that kind of aggression and heaviness, and I loved it.

RNRU : With that band you toured with The Boomtown Rats and Generation X, and of course The Rats were fronted by now Sir Bob Geldof, who's responsible for putting together both Live Aid and Live 8. Did you get to know Bob very well while touring with them, and did you ever think that he would ever go on to do what he did, and ultimately be knighted?

BT : That's right, Sir Bob. (Laughs) No, I didn't get to know Bob that well. Oddly enough, I live close, so I bump into him occasionally. I talk to him, and he never recognizes me hardly. It's like, "Hey Bob, how ya doing?" It's always like he looks cornered. He thinks I'm a punter. I say, "It's BERNIE, Bob.” (Laughs) No, I never thought he'd do what he's done, not at all. He wasn't ever the world's greatest singer really, but he always had a great way of kind of getting people going. He was also a very clever guy. Looking back on it, probably it was his kind of promotional energy that got The Rats where they got to. Because he was always an impressive person, he was great live. It's totally amazing, I turn on the radio occasionally, and I'll hear Bob talking about Africa. I think it's great, but I can't really take it seriously almost, having known him. It's like, "C'mon Bob, come down off the cross.” (Laughs)

RNRU : Now from there you got the call to join Gillan, and let's explore that era if you don't mind for a little while. After you joined, the band had fantastic U.K. chart success, beginning with '79's 'Mr. Universe' through 'Future Shock,' your last with the band. All told, getting 5 singles in the Top 40, all the albums reached the Top 20, with 'Future Shock' just barely missing #1, coming in at #2 on the album charts. Yet after all that you weren't making any money, which was one of the reasons you finally left the band, with boredom being cited as another. What happened to all the money? Were you just not being paid by management?

BT : Well, I have no idea really. You'd have to ask Ian about that, at the time I was in the band there was no management. There probably is an explanation. I was told... I went and had a drink with Ian years after, and he claimed that he had to pay it all in taxes, because he'd never paid any taxes in Purple. So basically, all that Gillan earned, all the profits, ended up being paid to the Inland Revenue. At least if he'd asked, it might have been nice, because I'd have said, "Of COURSE Ian.” But, he didn't really ask. (Laughs)

JM : Yeah, and that was in the time when you had to sell a lot of records to hit the top of the charts. Obviously we would get like a weekly check to take care of our bills, a wage basically. But we... particularly myself, Mick Underwood... we kind of had a thing that we would leave our royalties, our merchandising money, publishing money, that was kind of like our pension fund. It was like that was money in the bank. But unfortunately it wasn't there. It had gone elsewhere.

RNRU : Recently, John, in an interview with Classic Rock Magazine you said that the title track of the album, "Bitter & Twisted" was about your days in Gillan. Now, I know that was said somewhat tongue in cheek, but how was your time with the band? Were things really that bad when you were with Gillan?

JM : No, things were great when I was with Gillan. We had a fantastic 5 years. With Ian I made 7 albums. We had great success. We had number 1 albums, Top 20 singles, sold out tours, TV shows every week. We were massively successful, and it was one of the best times of my life. To arrive at a situation where you're in a band with, and writing songs with Ian Gillan, who's like the best singer in the world, for me that was like a dream come true. It couldn't have been better. I had a great time in that band, it was when it finished I didn't have a great time, the way it finished. The fairly swift realization that all that work we'd been doing, the sold out tours, albums, and all the rest of it, that the band's share of the money wasn't there.

RNRU : What would you say out of all of them is your favorite Gillan album?

JM : Personally, it has to be 'Glory Road.’ There were tracks on other albums which I really, really liked, but for me 'Glory Road' was the time when we'd really, really made it. It was probably the biggest selling album. The album before that, 'Mr. Universe,' was a really strong album as well, but we'd just got together with Bernie and Mick Underwood at that point. 'Mr. Universe' was brilliant, but by the time we'd got to the 'Glory Road' album it was a really tight unit. It was a high energy band, and there were so many different characters within the band. Like the Purple situation, there was a kind of tension between the guys. I think it works, it creates some sort of fire. It's strange, but we're all strange, aren't we?

RNRU : How would you rate your own playing on the Gillan albums Bernie?

BT : I hate it. Absolutely hate it. I mean, I like ' Mr.Universe', because of the rawness. But a lot of the time... I hear my playing, and I fucking hate it, really hate it. A lot of the problem is I always wanted a tiny bit more time to re-approach it after the original track, clean it up, and do it in light of what Ian had sung on top of it. On none of those albums did I ever approach any of the guitar parts knowing what the song was. That's really hard. The first album, they had recorded some of the tracks previously, but that was the only case. On 'Glory Road' and 'Future Shock' I went in, and recorded a guitar part over a drum, bass and a keyboard part. I hadn't got any idea at all where Ian was going to place the vocal lines, or the tunes, I'd have a suggestion that he would rarely follow. It's just, I hear it now, and it sounds like I'm completely ignoring him, and I am, because I had no idea what he was planning on doing. He hadn't even written the songs at that stage. Basically, John or I would have a riff, we'd go in and record the riff with drums, possibly keys. Colin would have a track, we'd go record his track, then only last of all Ian would come in and do something completely instinctual and different. And I would have no chance to take account of that. I absolutely bloody hated that. Because I'm one who operates on interplay, and it just never, ever happened. It was just so frustrating.

I mean, in the case of "Are You Sure?” from 'Glory Road,' it has the chorus of, "Let me be your confidante,” and I played that line, and I expected him to do some sort of interplay, and he sang the same bloody line. And I'm thinking, "Well, fuck me, I don't want to be playing the same line as your singing.” (Laughs) Well, it's Ian. From what I've heard in terms of Purple, I don't think a lot has changed. But it is his approach. He doesn't seem to have a great amount of interest in spending time working on, or having people's opinions. He is very instinctive. But he's instinctive, to me, in a slightly lazy, cop out way at times. (Laughs) I know that's like, "Who am I to slag him off?" But I found it awfully hard. I wouldn't have had a problem with him nicking the line as a tune, if I'd had the chance to go in and change what I'd played after that. Only I never had that chance. It wasn't in the budget.

RNRU : John, what exactly, in your opinion, was the situation which led to Gillan breaking up?

JM : In my opinion, I think in all honesty when Bernie left the band the rot set in. Because he left in a great big bust up, a screaming argument. He found out certain facts about the accounts and the money… all those kind of problems which I spoke about before, and demanded accounts and payments. He said, “Unless I get this, I’m leaving the band.” He didn’t get what he was asking for, so he left. He stood by what he said. He kind of said to me, Underwood and Colin what he was concerned about. We kind of talked with Ian about the problem, and Ian convinced us there wasn’t a problem, that Bernie was being crazy again.

I should really point out that from the outset, when we started Gillan the band, previously I had done an album with Ian which was only released in Japan. It was after doing that album as a session player that Ian said, “This band’s really good. We should try to stick together and try and make something.” We started having talks about it, and I thought it was a great idea, but I wanted Ian to go more in the direction of Purple than he’d been working with his previous band. So we talked about how we were going to do it. We could do this, we could do that, and Ian sat down with us and said, “Well, we’re forming the band now.” By the time we got to the situation with Bernie, Ian was saying that everything is split equally between all of us. Now, if he’d sat down with us and said, “Look, I’m Ian Gillan, and the reason this is happening is ME. No matter who you guys might be, I’m IAN GILLAN, so I get 10 times more than you, but you get this,” that’d be a different story. That’s what we believed the situation to be, that all the money due to the band would be split equally between us. Obviously there was a different situation with songwriting and publishing, because everybody had their own songs that they wrote, and it’s all divided with the publishing. That’s a separate issue.

But, as I said, when Bernie left, the rot kind of set in, and although we got a great replacement in Janick Gers, the magic started to go. It became more of a job, and I think Ian was feeling restless. Talks were going on at that time about the Purple reformation. If Ian had come to us and said, “Look, Purple are getting back together and we’re gonna do it,” we would’ve all said, “Great, of course you have to do that.” We would’ve said, “Oh shit it’s Purple, you have to do it.” (Laughs), wish him luck and we’d all go our separate ways. But that wasn’t the way that it was handled. We were still waiting for accounts, and getting a little bit concerned. While we were on our British tour in 1982, it became obvious that something was not right because Ian was traveling separately from us. He had a guy, like a bodyguard, going around with him. We had separate dressing rooms. The only time we saw him on that tour was onstage. There were no conversations to be had with the guy. But the band, apart from Ian, all got together and said, “Look, whatever’s happening we’ve got to finish the tour. We can’t let the people down. The tickets are sold, we should go out and we’ll talk this out afterwards.” Plus there was also this thing going that Ian had some kind of throat problem, and he needed to take a rest. It sounds laughable now, it’s like a comedy sketch.

RNRU : I remember it being reported at the time that the band was being disbanded due to Ian having nodes on his vocal cords and needed at least 9 months off …

JM : We were told that he needed a year off. Okay. We were all very busy musically before Gillan, doing sessions and different bands, writing and producing. If we had to take a year off, then maybe that’s not a bad thing. But after that happened... unfortunately the last gig was at Wembley Arena, that was the final show of the tour, and before we’d even got off stage, Ian had left the building. (Laughs) Ian Gillan has left the building. There were people all around… the road crew, lighting crew, truckers, not to mention the guys in the band all wandering around saying, “Where’s my money?” Which was very sad. I had to go and rent a van to unload my own equipment and drive it away. Not many people play Wembley and then have to do that. So obviously there was something desperately wrong. I remember going through the door, and Ian was running out the side door, and that’s the last time I saw him. But maybe he was going for a jog or something, I don’t know, trying to keep fit. But he didn’t seem to be suffering too badly with throat problems, because fairly soon after that he was appearing with Black Sabbath, recording an album with them.

[HARD ROCK UNIVERSE]

RNRU : Was that a shock to you and the rest of the band when Ian resurfaced with Sabbath?

JM : I think you could say that, yeah. That was a shock. Also, it really pissed me off because, to me, he kind of messed up one of my favorite bands. Like I said before about being a traditionalist, that sort of thing. He made a mess of Black Sabbath for me.

RNRU : Those two styles definitely didn’t seem to fit at all, and the production on ‘Born Again’ was terrible…

JM : I think it’s a dreadful album. In the same realm as I was saying about Purple. Black Sabbath was Ozzy, that original lineup, and Tony Iommi, that was Black Sabbath. Over the lineups since then there have been some great records, but there was a magic there the first time around. What Ian did with Sabbath I thought was absolutely painful. But that’s probably because I could never listen to it objectively, because I was hearing Ian and thinking, “Hey guy, what are you doin’?” (Laughs) It just really messed me up mentally for a year or two. I became a recluse I’m afraid, and just locked myself away. I was just so disgusted with being treated like that, and disappointed with Ian as a friend. I thought that we were very close friends, and believed him implicitly. I stood by him when people were telling me, “Look, this guy’s ripping you off.” And I would say, “No, he wouldn’t do that to me.” But he did it to everybody. He did it to Mick Underwood. I mean, they were in school together. How could he do that? I still don’t understand it. I really don’t understand it. But most of all it's just disappointing to have someone who was initially a hero, then in your band, singing your songs... you think he's your friend... it gets you disillusioned with people's honesty. It's such a shame. I'm sure there were reasons for it, but he's never bothered to tell me why he did that to everyone.

RNRU : I've got to ask you both the inevitable question regarding the band...what are the chances of a Gillan reunion in your opinion?

BT : I don't think there is ANY chance. I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think I'd have any interest in it. There was a point when I would've been happy if we would've been able to play an occasional gig for old time's sake. But the atmosphere hasn't improved over the years. It's been really a continuing saga where no one has really been prepared to compromise. I don't really have any interest in it, it's past. It was a great experience, because for me to be able to play with Ian, who was a hero, was incredible. It was like every kid's dream, really. But I think, having had the dream go wrong, it's not something that would be possible to re-approach. What would be the reason? It would only happen if Ian felt he was able to earn out of it again. I don't really think that's enough of a reason. You have to actually have a musical reason at least, and I don't think there is any. It'd be playing the same tracks again, and there was always a problem at the time, in the context of the band, about how new material arrived, because there never appeared to be a great amount of interest in some people in the band's case about whether it was up to scratch or not. Because of that, we had some great tracks, and other extremely ‘I don’t know about that’ tracks. It was of its time. It was definitely something everyone in the band was constantly arguing about. It wasn't really ever addressed, in terms of let's choose a demo, or let's choose a track. It was basically where we had no tracks at all in the beginning. We'd then record an entire album in the space of a month, and have it mixed. There never was a chance to re-approach anything in the case of, "Hold on, perhaps it'd be better if we had another track, or another try.”

JM : (Laughs) After all that...you're asking me that question. Great. Well, in another dimension it would be quite sensible, wouldn't it? Ian, at the moment, is not working with Purple, he's on some mad tour in Australia with... I don't know who's in the band. It's not that I follow his career in any way, shape or form. But people think that I'm interested and they're constantly telling me about what he's up to. I think in an ideal world, yes, it would be great. I'm not saying it's an impossibility, because he's still the best bloody singer in the world. The man is just wonderful. But for a Gillan reunion to happen, somebody's got to put their hand in their wallet. I'm not saying it has to be Ian but somebody, somewhere would have to start waving large checks. I'd love to do it. But whether that'll ever happen, I doubt it very much. I'm getting long in the tooth now, and you are prepared to sort of forgive and forget for a new experience. But I know other members in the band who might not agree with me, and it wouldn't matter how much money was offered or anything. You'd have to ask them all individually, but I'm not sure if eveyone would want to do it. I guess I would, yeah.

RNRU : Bernie's just said he wouldn't want to at this time...

JM : That's what I meant about the large checks. (Laughs) Eventually he would say yes. Also, for Colin as well, it's sad for him. Colin Towns was in the Ian Gillan Band, and he stuck by him from the beginning of that band right until the end of Gillan. They wrote some incredible music together, worked so hard, and Colin put so much into making the band work. I don't know, to be honest with you, if he'd want to be involved because there's so much bad feeling gone down. I guess I've sort of got a lot of it out of my system because I've been doing the 'Gillan Tapes' with Angel Air. I've released a lot of alternative versions of Gillan material... outtakes, all kinds of stuff as the 'Gillan Tapes' series. I kind of had fun doing that. I think it's helped me to sort of get the whole problem with the memory of that out of my system. It's nice to be in control of some Gillan product, because we could make sure that everybody got paid. (Laughs)

RNRU : Ian's gone on record as publicly disowning those releases, pretty much calling those bootleg releases and telling the fans not to buy them. What response do you have regarding that?

JM : Well, that's up to him. He gets sent a royalty check. It's making money for him. And it is what happened. What I always say to people is, that at the end of the day... when I put out the first 'Gillan Tapes,’ if Ian didn't like it, or his management didn't like it... because obviously we made sure he was sent copies... why didn't they do something? Now that was 10 years ago. For the last 10 years I've been releasing Gillan product, it's been selling quite well, and the band are perfectly happy with the fact that they get royalty checks from those releases. It keeps the name of the band active and alive. Now, if Ian wasn't happy with that, how come he never did anything? Why didn't he say, "Hey, you can't do that.” Or sue me, take me to court... why wouldn't he do that then? If he was that unhappy with it, stop it. Put an injunction on it, or at least get on the phone and say, "Look you can't do that.”

RNRU : Are there any plans to release further recordings in that series?

JM : Oh yeah. I've got absolutely hours and hours of it. (Laughs) But I've kind of got it out of my system. I'm not going to be doing anything for awhile. I'm too busy with other projects right now. The original Gillan albums are going to start being re-released next year. We've signed agreements. They're going to be coming out in the original packaging, and the original versions of the albums are going to be remastered and released. Also, there'll be DVD's of all the BBC material coming out. We've all signed bits of paper saying that everybody's going to get paid. So maybe what I've done with the 'Gillan Tapes' has finally brought things around full circle to a kind of agreement to do the thing properly. Somebody told me the other day that the reason Ian and his management would never have done anything legally about the 'Gillan Tapes' thing was that basically that if they came to me, or Angel Air Records, and said, "Look, we don't like what you've done, we're taking you to court and stop this,” was that you go to court and it's a tit for tat situation. So if we went to court we'd gladly say, "We'll hand all the money over, stop doing that or whatever.” But at the same time we'd be saying, "Excuse me, could we have OUR money?" I think that could be the reason that maybe nothing's happened.

RNRU : That could open up another can of worms right there...

JM : A very, very large, old stinky one.

RNRU : Well, it'll be great to finally have those albums remastered and sounding great finally...

JM : Oh yeah, I'm very, very pleased with the outcome of that. It's been a long time, and a lot of work to get everyone to agree to it, because you can't really buy the Gillan albums anywhere now. There are bootlegs around, which aren't too good. But we're going to put them out with all the original artwork.

RNRU : What label are those going to be released on?

JM : These are going to come out on Demon Records over here.

[HARD ROCK UNIVERSE]

RNRU : Bernie, around a year later after you left Gillan, in '82, you were called upon by Ozzy Osbourne to fill in on very short notice when Randy Rhoads was tragically killed, playing several dates on the tour before finding it wasn't working for you, and you left, with Ozzy bringing in Brad Gillis. Brad has stated that doing that tour was the most depressing situation he's ever been involved with. What was the mood when you stepped in, and what do you recall about those shows?

BT : It was absolutely awful. To put you in the picture, at the beginning, I'd just come out of Ian's band, and I thought, "I'm going to go and form a band, tour and record an album.” It was at the part of recording at that stage. That was the project I was involved in. I got the call, and it was like, "Can you go out to L.A. tomorrow and play with Ozzy?" I said, "Well, no I can't. I'm sorry what's happened, I'd love to help, but I can't.” So they called again, and they said, "Please, please, please, there isn't anyone else.” I said, "Look, you're telling me I don't have to audition?" They said, "No, there's nobody else, just you.” I said, "Well, I CAN'T.” So they called up again and said, "It's 2,000 pounds a week.” I was absolutely fucking penniless at the time. I hadn't got a penny. So, I said, "It's 2,000 pounds a week? I'll think about it. I'm not auditioning, right?" They said, "No, you're not auditioning, it's 2,000 pounds a week, and it's only a month.” So I said okay, I'll have a think about it. So I put down the phone, and I thought, "2,000 pounds a week... that's an awful lot of fucking money." This was 1982. I called back and said, "Okay, if I'm not auditioning, and if you pay me a week's pay up front.” That sounds awfully mercenary, but the thing is, I'd been on Jet Records, with the Ardens, prior to joining Ian. So there was this feeling of I really didn't trust what I'd been told. They then said, "Yeah, okay.” The money never arrived, so I never went out. Then, it did arrive, and I went out. And there were 3 other people auditioning. (Laughs) So I was thinking, "Well, at least I'm probably the only one who's been paid up front.” (Laughs)

So I auditioned, then Sharon says, "Bernie, are you able to come 'round to the back of the amps?" Then she said, "You've got the gig.” I said, "Oh great!" She said, "But the pay isn't 2,000 pounds a week, it's 500 dollars a week.” So then… David Arden, who's her brother, whom I'd spoken to, I said, "David said it was 2,000 POUNDS a week.” Sharon said, "Bernie, David doesn't know what he's talking about, he's on drugs, it's 500 dollars a week.” So I'm standing there thinking I've been paid 2,000 pounds, I'm not going to be paid again. (Laughs) (2000 pounds worked out to being about $3000 at that time.) So anyway, I liked Ozzy, and it was a great band, so I figured I'm already here I might as well try it. Because at that time I thought it's only a month. Then it started to turn into gigs in Hawaii, and Alaska... 3 months away, and I'm kind of saying, "Well hold on, I wasn't told about any of this. I have an album coming out, I have a band, and a tour. I have a project to do. I can't let people down.” But to return to your question, I went out of the rehearsal rooms, Ozzy's crying, and it was just absolutely not the kind of situation that anyone would enjoy being in. I have to say, both Ozzy and Sharon were great, really nice to me. But it was chaos. Because they'd had all of this drop on them, and Sharon I think was just trying to have it carry on, because if Ozzy stopped he'd never do anything again. I was going around at the beginning, staying in hotel rooms that had been booked as "Roy Rodgers," which was Randy's hotel name. It was so depressing, just so depressing.

RNRU : Were you aware of Randy's playing before getting the call, and how daunting of a task was it for you to learn the set list in such a short time?

BT : I hadn't actually heard much of anything. I'd heard "Mr. Crowley" on the radio, once, and I thought wow, he’s great. I hadn't actually taken it in at all. So I'm asked, and being an arrogant guitarist, I thought yeah, of course I can handle it. I got the albums just before I left to go to the U.S., and it was just like, "Shit! What a player!" He was incredible.

RNRU : Was there ever a sense for you after hearing the albums of "What the hell have I gotten myself into here?"

BT : Definitely, oh definitely. Because the difference between his style of playing and mine was that he was basically a classical player, and I was not. So it was such a struggle. We were playing almost an hour and a half, and the only song I knew on it was "Paranoid," basically. To take it in, in terms of arrangements, licks and subtleties was completely utterly impossible. I just wasn't able to. I was jet lagged, tired, and scared, because also I hadn't any idea of how it was going to be. I didn't even know if Ozzy was playing clubs.

RNRU : Well, these weren't club dates, we're talking about playing Madison Square Garden...

BT : Yeah. And I go out, and it's like, "Shit!” It was this big stage production, and one of the problems was that you couldn't fucking hear anything on stage. Tommy Aldridge is on top of a pyramid, to actually hear the high hats, or toms, was completely impossible. All I had was 2 wedges down there I wasn't able to hear anything at all. It was just so hard. Having done a few gigs, I remember thinking, "I'm not enjoying this AT ALL.” I just thought I can't hack it. But, in retrospect, hearing the bootlegs of me with Ozzy, I was amazed it was as okay as it was. Because my memories of it... the first gig, I had a hired guitar, and I had Randy's pedals because mine hadn't arrived. I really didn't want to use his pedals. I mean, his pedals turned on and off, and I wasn't even close to them. Everyone's saying, "Oh, it's damp.” Well, I've never had a pedal turn on and off because of dampness. I'm looking at the lights, and I could see the chorus pedal turning on and off. And I remember thinking I really do not want to be here. It wasn't as if the wrong pedal was going off at the wrong time, it was the right pedal but it was a raw situation in terms of emotions. In all honesty, all the way along, I was thinking, "Well hold on...if this had happened... If I had been in Gillan, and I had died, would I have wanted the band to carry on?” And I don't know how I would answer that. It was a problem I personally had with all of it. I can see Sharon and Ozzy's point of view that it HAS to carry on. There wasn't any point in stopping. But being Irish, we pay a lot of attention to the dead, probably too much. So it was a problem for me personally.

RNRU : After leaving Ozzy you formed Electric Gypsies, then you teamed up with Phil Lewis in Torme, recording three independently released albums with the band. Why do you feel the band never took off? I mean you certainly had the requisite looks, image and more than enough talent. What happened there? Why didn't the band get a major label deal? You were selling out The Marquee, getting rave reviews from the critics, and the live clips which are on the 'Stratocaster Gypsy' DVD are great...

BT : Yeah, Torme was always a lot better live than the records, I think. I have to say that I don't really like it. It isn't a put down of any of the people, it's just I feel how it was approached, because at the time we were getting an enormous amount of pressure from the guy who published me to do the 80's type band. I think there was a certain kind of lack of interest in what we played, as opposed to how we looked. I really find it a tiny bit dead. It isn't the kind of thing I'm good at, I don't think.

RNRU : It’s been said that before, and during his time with you in Torme, that Phil Lewis had a healthy smack addiction going on. Were you aware of that at the time, and was drug usage a factor to the band not making it do you think?

BT : Well, it obviously was a situation I knew about, but no one is an angel. And to be honest, Phil's addictions were largely presented initially as past problems, though that well may not have been the case. I was aware of a lot of things at that time, most of which lead me today to believe I had my head firmly up my ass and needed an atom bomb to remove it. The band was a good live band, but not a creative band. It was really treading water for me and didn't excite the right bits for me, for audiences it was very cool, great performance band. Phil also incidentally got a lot of stick from my so called partisan fans, including getting the tires on his car slashed for the privilege of playing with your lordship.

Philip was a fantastic front man and a great singer, and a grown up, so as far as I was (and am) concerned, he made his own choices, which were cool by me. We didn't agree on everything, and we didn't live each others lives, but personally I liked him lots.

I don't think that had anything at all to do with the lack of success, it didn't damage anyone else who did it at the time, I think the band just was not right, it wasn't meant to happen. It’s a weird thing, that ‘having something that works’ situation, you've got to be in the right place at the right time doing the right thing, its more feng shui than anything else, and then you've just got to ride the tiger if you really want to. That has down sides too. Though success seemed very important at that point, it didn't happen. Personally, in retrospect I'm glad, it wasn't a lot of fun for me, though I still love all the people that were in the band. It was a formula that i didn't really see in my heart, though I undoubtedly wanted the success. More than I wanted the music, in truth. We did some good tracks.

RNRU : When you were with Phil in Torme, you all had some pretty big hair, man… What was your hairspray of choice? Was that Aqua Net? And do you feel responsible at all for the widening of the hole in the ozone layer?

BT : (Laughs) Yes they didn't call me the king of the cfc's for nothing! Those big hair days were a bit of a cringe looking back on it, but oh yes, I was there, spraying that Aqua Net like a mutha!

RNRU : Have you ever spoken to Phil regarding working together again? Is that a possibility?

BT : No. I mean, I don't think that I'm his favorite person. (Laughs) I haven't spoken to him in a long time. He's great, a great frontman, but I don't think it's a road that I'd enjoy going down again. Because he has an approach, I have an approach, and our approaches aren't really the same sort of thing. I like basically jamming and doing it on a wing and a prayer. That's what I'm good at. He likes to plan.

[HARD ROCK UNIVERSE]

RNRU : Moving on a few years from Torme, you joined up with Twisted Sister frontman Dee Snider and former Iron Maiden drummer Clive Burr in Desperado, and you recorded 'Ace,’ which until this year remained unreleased. I think that's a great album, but how do you feel that it holds up today?

BT : Yeah, I do too. I love it. As I've said a couple of times, I'm not 100% happy with the guitars on it. But hey, the guitars on it are just the guitars on it. Dee's astronomical, Clive's astronomical. Great songs, and it's a great album.

RNRU : What were the reasons that Elektra gave for not releasing it at the time?

BT : To be honest with you, I don't really know. They just changed their minds. There never was any rational explanation that I heard. It was, I think, because I've talked to Dee about it lots of times, apparently kind of a political thing. The guy who signed us also signed Tracey Chapman. He signed us, and Elektra have never been a label that likes paying a lot. And they did pay a lot. He left, and we were left without the A&R who had signed us. So I think there was a certain amount of politics going on because after that, he joined SBK or someone, and I think that they felt that they didn't want to have us as an act. It was a completely strange situation. We'd recorded it, it was all completed, the photographs for the artwork had been done, they'd arranged a video director, and I even met him in London to explain what we wanted to do. In the middle of the meeting, Elektra called him, then he said, "I'm sorry, I can't talk to you anymore. You have to go home and call the management". So I go home, call the management, and we'd been dropped by the label. Fucked, out the airlock, spinning silently through space. However, you approach it, they'd spent an absolute fortune on it, and it was completely pointless. Even if it'd come out and turned over, they'd have had a proportion of the money back. Record companies are beasts, really.

RNRU : Would you be interested in working with Dee again? Have the two of you spoken about teaming up again and writing?

BT : Oh, I'd love to. We had talked, and at one time he wanted to do a reformation for a gig for Clive, to generate a bit of money for him. But, unfortunately, nobody appeared to be interested, so it never happened. (Laughs) Dee is a guy who does things 2000%, or not at all. So I don't think, as time drags on, it'll happen, it's less likely I think. I'd love it though, it'd be great.

RNRU : Speaking of Clive Burr, you're also involved in the 'Cliveaid' fund raising events to benefit Clive, who as John mentioned earlier is suffering from MS. How did you get involved with that, and how is he doing these days?

BT : Well, Clive is pretty poor at the moment. He isn't at all well. I got involved in the whole 'Cliveaid' thing basically through the thing with Anti-Product... Alex Kane was asked to play one of the early Cliveaid gigs, and at the time I bumped into Robin, who was playing with Alex on a session at that point. Alex asked if I would play a gig too. Because I've known Clive for years, I agreed, but then I hadn't a band. I asked Robin, who idolizes Clive, and John, who's also played with Clive, and it was really the beginning of GMT. Cliveaid was GMT's birth, really. But Clive is not at all well at the moment. He isn't able to walk at all, he isn't able to get up stairs. He's in a bad way, really. It's been very speedy in his case.

RNRU : During your career you’ve had the opportunity to play many, many gigs, both large festivals and small. What has been your most memorable live gig you’ve played?

BT : It would have to be a festival in Nuremberg 1980 with Gillan, when we opened for Ted Nugent. We had been special guests at the Reading festival in England the night before, 30,000 crazed rockers and had the 'Glory Road' album at number 3 in the charts. Rock'n'roll! Sensibly enough we never went to bed afterwards. So there we are drunk, crazed, powdered and puffed on a shitty little private plane that took about three hours to get to Nuremburg to go on stage at 12 noon. All you could do was take more of whatever you had been taking and pray that the shit was not going to hit the fan till after the gig. Unfortunately that wasn't what happened: We got there, and first of all every European magazine wanted to take pics of this new rock band that had gone straight in the UK album charts at number 3: some absolutely stunning pictures!

And secondly we had hired gear, we arrived half an hour before stage time, and all the hired gear was all wrong: Colin Towns’ keyboard, a Yamaha of some description, had jack outputs, and we had a hired Leslie cab with some sort of multi-core plug and nothing to patch between. McCoy, instead of 800 watts of Marshall major had a nice little Fender Bassman. Ian being a real professional despite the fact that he could still hardly stand up due to the bottles of scotch, gave us a pep talk about making the best of a bad situation. So like Blackadder off we went over the top and onstage, to 30,000 or 40,000 people.

John hit the first note on the bass and blew the speaker instantly: no bass. So being a natural entertainer he starts chucking his bass up in the air to see if he could get it over the lighting truss. Eventually he succeeds, but he didn't manage to catch it on the way down, it hit the stage headstock first and split the neck. So he then picks up his hired Fender Bassman and chucks it into the audience.

The PA crew, who were Britannia Row, Pink Floyd's crew, obviously more used to life at a more gentle pace, at that stage obviously decided that we were just a bunch of anarchistic demons from hell who deserved to die like dogs, and turned up all the stage monitors so they are howling like hell. What a silly thing to do, we all had headaches to begin with.

So I boot the monitor wedges in front of me into the audience, McCoy does the same thing. Ian gets very pissed off, he must have one hell of a hangover, and starts threatening the monitor engineer who ignores him, so he throws his microphone at him Daltrey style, and misses, Ian style, nearly decapitates Colin, and also hits Colin's ARP synthesizer, which at that point was the only keyboard that actually worked. The howling continues, so I start demolishing the mountainous side fills, and McCoy does the same thing on the other side of the stage. The howling gradually stops.

At this point we are starting our third number, I can see Ted Nugent looking unconvinced at the mixing desk, he is actually taking all of this in. There goes any chance of a U.S. tour supporting Ted. So now we start the third number with guitar, drums and no bass or keyboards: It's not ideal. Throughout the whole song McCoy is just chucking PA boxes off stage, and smashing things.

We get to the end of the song, and I think that’s it, we can't carry on, so I unplug and jump off the back of the stage and head towards the dressing rooms in a hotel complex about 300 yards away. As I jump off the stage there's loads of people in the way, all the way to the hotel, but its like Moses parting the Red Sea, they all just evaporate as I walk. Man, we must've made some impression. I am under the mistaken impression that everyone else in the band is just behind me: so I'm about 100 yards from the stage and I hear Ian's voice through the PA saying, "And our next number is a song called "Mr. Universe.” I think, "Oh shit," and turn around to start to run back and see McCoy 20 yards behind me, Colin 20 yards behind him and Mick Underwood 20 yards behind him. Ian is on his own on stage, oblivious that everyone else has gone. Slight pause, and then Ian's voice through the PA : "Apparently not...."

The next day we again opened for Ted at the Lorelei festival, which says a huge amount for all the people concerned, Brit Row, the German promoters and crew, Ted and most especially Saxon who very kindly lent us their gear, that was all above and beyond. And we even did a good gig. I can't believe Saxon lent a bunch of destructive loonies like us their gear after what happened, I wouldn't have! Real gentlemen.

JM : I guess I'd have to say it was G.M.T. in Dublin two days ago. The rest of them I can't remember. (Laughs) Seriously, that's a hard question. I've done an awful lot, and to pinpoint any particular one is very difficult. I've had so many great gigs and some shit ones as well, but none in particular.

RNRU : There's been some talk concerning you doing a U.S. tour, and it was rumored to be last fall. What happened with that, and can fans expect you to be hitting the States anytime soon?

BT : To be honest, I don't really know anything about that. If it is true, it'd be great, and I'd love to. There aren't any hard plans that I know of at the moment though.

RNRU : I remember seeing a web site where the person was trying to get you over here to The States...

BT : Yeah, he has been trying. I haven't had any communication that there are any gigs, or anything else, though I'd love it, I love America.

RNRU : You have a family, with three kids, which makes you a much braver man than I Bernie. How do you reconcile between having a family and being a working musician? Is that a factor in you not touring?

BT : Well no, not really. It’s always been more about being happy in the band. I'm not someone who really needs applause, which is just as well really, though it’s nice when it happens. I really only like gigging if it’s something where I'm involved in something I think is special, and that to me is dependent on the chemistry in the band. Maybe because I hear myself playing all the time, I don't really get turned on in any way at all by my own playing per se, so for me its got to be the other players and the interplay. Throughout the 80's and 90's there seemed to be a very ‘play it safe’ attitude with a lot of players, which really was boring. GMT for me is different, it’s a really exciting thing. Unfortunately, it’s much harder to tour these days, but we'll keep trying! The family has always all been fantastically supportive of anything I've wanted to do, glad to get rid of me. The problem has always been more in the area of my wanting to do it in the first place!

RNRU : How do your kids feel about your work? Are they aware of your playing and what do they think of your music?

BT : They really dig it. In fact, I always check out stuff I do on them, they are really open and have broad tastes, and if they like something they really let me know; also, if they think it’s par for the course or lousy. Incidentally, they all played or sang on ‘Bitter & Twisted.’ Jimi, my eldest son (15) sang on “No Justice,” “Rocky Road From Dublin,” and “Cannonball” too. Eric (13) played guitar on ‘No Justice,” and Tallulah played the bicycle bell on “Vincenzo.” Lisa, my missus, played violin on “Miss The Buzz.” Fuckin' hippies!

RNRU : You've already released a compilation of live and promo clips on DVD last year with 'Stratocaster Gypsy'. As you've been gigging with GMT, have you given any thought to, or filmed any performances for a live DVD of the band?

BT : We haven't yet, but we're hoping to. Because we have actually had a couple of bootlegs, just bits and pieces, and the bootlegs haven't been too bad really. (Laughs) It's definitely a plan we're working on for 2007.

RNRU : John, you were responsible for putting together Paul Samson's posthumously released 'P.S...' album, which was recently released on Angel Air. What were the circumstances leading up to you being responsible for completing that project and how difficult of a task was it for you, emotionally, putting it all together?

JM : That was hell. I talked to Paul before his death. He asked me if I'd finish the album for him, mix it and make sure that it got released. You don't refuse a dying man anything, but I was kind of honored that he asked me to do it. I worked on a couple of tracks with him at the very end, and I played a couple bass parts while he was still alive. But then he deteriorated so quickly that he wasn't really able to function and continue with it. He just talked with me about how he wanted it to sound, different effects and ideas he'd had. But after his death I really couldn't even listen to it for a long, long time, almost a year. Because most people understand the recording process these days, you have individual tracks with all the different instruments and voices. Just hearing him playing and hearing his voice at the beginning and endings of tracks... he left a couple of messages on there for me as well, which was really touching. I found it really, really emotional. I found myself in tears a couple of times hearing guitar parts he'd attempted, and obviously at the end of his life he wasn't able to really do them... having to make the decision to take them off for the good of the record. But I really felt that he was with me when I was working on it. He also, before he died, encouraged me to start working with Bernie again, saying, "You want to get out and play. People want to see you.”

We were very close, and as I was doing the things that I had to do to the album, which included bass parts and a few rhythm guitar parts, but mostly I was trying to mix it from this myriad of tracks which he'd recorded. He'd kind of over recorded guitar parts. I guess he really didn't want to finish it, because that would've been... I think it kind of kept him going, recording parts on this album. It was really, really hard, but eventually it's done. I did my best with it, because it was recorded under very difficult circumstances. Some of the tracks don't sound as good as they could, but that's what we had. Some of it sounds good to me. There are some great songs on there, and of course Nicky Moore turns in his usual excellent job on vocals. But the whole thing's very emotional. Anyone who knew Paul and knew his work, just listen to the last track on the album, "Shooting For The Moon.” That's an emotional thing. All I can say is I'm glad it's over. It was getting to the stage where I was thinking I'm never going to finish this. I'm going to die before I'm finished, then I'll pass it on to Bernie. (Laughs)

RNRU : I'd imagine it was very emotionally draining as well...

JM : Yeah, emotionally it was very hard, but he was there, he was helping me.

[HARD ROCK UNIVERSE]

RNRU : To lighten things up here a bit, what has been your most 'Spinal Tap' moment?

JM : Well, I had a band called Mammoth, and that was kind of Spinal Tap-ish. It was totally over the top. I've just mentioned Nicky Moore, who's one of the best voices in rock, but he's really a big fat slob of an ugly guy. He won't mind me saying that, he says much worse about me. (Laughs) I'd got a band together with him... my wife and I were always impressed with his singing, and we used to talk about it and say, "How come that guy's never made it?" So we decided that the only way to get him to be successful would be if the whole band were extremely large, fat people, myself included, making Nicky Moore seem normal. From that kind of stupid idea, Mammoth grew out of it. It became the biggest band in the world. We weighed a lot of pounds. Everything was over the top. We had 230 Marshall mini stacks. We had a 7 piece bass drum kit. We had the kit with 'Mammoth' spelled out on each individual bass drum and tom tom. We had miniature guitars. The whole thing was crazy.

We went out on tour, and we had dwarves, bearded ladies and fire eaters. It was just completely crazy. We had a huge back drop with a mammoth's head with tusks which projected out into the audience. None of which we could use in the gigs that we were booked into because you couldn't fit any of it in. It was a little bit Spinal Tap. We had a reasonable amount of success, but it was kind of a joke image. We did lots of kids TV shows, comedy shows. It was like a funny band, but the music wasn't. There was a kind of confusion there I think. We were still serious musicians, and I really like some of the songs we got together, Nicky and I. I'm very proud of what we did. But the image took over, this joke. That's the thing about jokes, after awhile they stop being funny, and it kind of fizzled out. We had a good time and a fun time, and we had a lot of money.

BT : (Laughs) Well...actually, thinking about it, it was on the Gillan tour of America, either St. Louis or someplace in the mid part of America. At the time, in the U.K, we were on Virgin… you know, chart albums, all that, then we go to the U.S., absolutely unknown... fantastic. (Laughs) We're driving around in a bus, a track with loads of crew, and we end up at the gig, and we haven't seen anyone at all representing the record company, which at the time was RSO in America, because they distributed Virgin. Here we are, at this little gig, around 2 people in the audience, and this guy comes up and says, "Hi, I'm Artie, the RSO rep." He says, "Here's some beers,” hands us a 6 pack, and walks out. We never saw him again. It definitely was Artie Fufkin. (Laughs) It was THAT moment.

RNRU : John, you have a compilation that's just coming out in February, ‘McCoy Unreal The Anthology’ which pretty much spans your entire career thus far, with tracks from Zzebra, Gillan, McCoy, Atomic Rooster, Mammoth, Sun Red Sun, Samson and even up to date with a track from G.M.T. What else can you tell us about that, and do you feel that it’s a definitive statement of who you are and who you’ve been, musically speaking?

JM : Definitive, no. It goes some of the way, but when I was piecing the album together… it’s a double CD album, you have to strike a balance between a) what’s available that you can actually use, b) the tracks that you personally like, and c) the ones that are commercial that people know of the stuff that you’ve done. That was the hardest thing, choosing the tracks from each era. Because the first track is from 1969, and that was a band which I mentioned before called Welcome, the 7 guys in 1 room. There’s a track from that band, and it was the only one I had available. But I really wanted to include after that a track from Curtis Maldoon, but unfortunately I wasn’t able to negotiate the license to use one of the tracks. It’s been very complicated, I was looking at the notes the other day and I noticed a couple of little errors on the dates, because it’s such a massive project for me. I haven’t got the best memory in the world anyway, and trying to remember which year this was done, and who was in the band, what happened to this… it’s been great fun, but very time consuming.

I don’t know if it’s definitive, it’s just some of what I’ve done. I could do another double album of things that I’ve done that I really like. It’s not an album where I like absolutely everything that’s on there, but certain tracks are on there for commercial reasons because those are the songs which were successful, and those are the ones people know me for. It’s a fine line between the commercial aspect and the personal preferences. There are tracks from most bands that I’ve been involved with anyway. But the Gillan tracks which are on there aren’t my absolute favorites, but I did kind of a survey asking people what’s the favorite Gillan song that I wrote, or the favorite Gillan song where you like the bass playing. It’s surprising what came back…also, to make sure that I included tracks with Bernie and Janick Gers. But, as I say, it starts in 1969 and goes right up to date with G.M.T. In fact, “Cannonball” is on there. There are a couple of funny things on there as well. Some of it’s quite embarrassing. (Laughs) There’s a track from the early 70’s, when I was trying to write commercial songs, have a hit single. There are a couple of jazz influenced tracks from Zzebra. That was a very, very different type of music from Gillan or G.M.T. People may be surprised with some of the stuff. I don’t think everyone knows the different things that I’ve done. I think people know me mostly from the Gillan success.

RNRU : Bernie, what do you think about the current state of guitar playing? Are there any guitarists as of late which have made you stand (or sit up) and take notice?

BT : The best guitar album I've heard of late was Davey Graham’s ' After Hours: Live at Hull University,' recorded on a domestic Grundig recorder in 1967. I don't much like the sounds of the guitars now, it’s all too perfect. I like the chips and the splinters, and the players just seem to be repeating each other, only faster. There’s too much skill and not enough raw knuckles and pain. Worse would be better. A bit more heart, soul and violence, a bit less genius would be what I would like.

RNRU : There seems to be a new Irish rock revival going on at the present, with bands such as The Answer and Glyder starting to make an impression as of late. Have you had an opportunity to hear either of these bands, and if so, what do you think?

BT : We just played in Dublin before Christmas with Glyder, they were really great, I love the album. We are hoping to do some more shows together this year, in 2007. The Answer I know less of, only heard a few tracks on the radio, but it sounds good. Great to see Irish bands doing well.

RNRU : Out of all the albums you've recorded, either with a band or solo, which would you say is your favorite, or is most representative of your playing?

BT : GMT definitely. You know, really, of all the albums I've done I'm proudest of this one. It's great to be as old as I am, and think that. (Laughs) It's like hell, after all this time, and I've actually recorded an album I'm proud of. Hey! A reason to carry on! (Laughs)

RNRU : If you had to pick one song which says, “This is who Bernie Torme is,” which song would that be?

BT : GMT "Down To Here".

RNRU : With all the bands and projects you've joined, have there been any bands or artists who have asked you to play with them, but for some reason, either musically or otherwise, you turned them down?

BT : No, not really. If anyone ever asks me, I usually play with them. (Laughs) I like playing. There have been situations that I've been asked to play, kind of sessions, and sometimes it's been, "Well, you're a part of the band.” And that's not the case, so that annoys me. Recently I played on Ginger from The Wildhearts' new album, and it's different to the kind of thing I normally do, but it's great. It's a challenge. I love playing. I haven't ever been particularly rejective of anyone who asks me. I'm happy to be asked.

RNRU : Speaking of projects, more recently you also appeared on three albums by Silver, which also featured former MSG vocalist Gary Barden, bassist Rob Daisley and on one, current Purple keyboardist Don Airey. Is that still an ongoing concern for you at this point?

BT : It isn't. There was a fourth album after that that I didn't play on. To be honest, it was a very conscious session project. Even though, on the first two albums, I was the only guitarist named on it, but I wasn't the only guitarist who played on it. On the first two albums, I only played some solos and licks, the rest of the guitar was by the guy who produced it. Of all of them, I enjoyed the first album most of all. I thought it had the best songs on it. I wasn't asked to do the last album. I kind of talked to Michael Voss occasionally, whose project it is, and he's a nice guy and extremely talented. He has an approach to things, and to be honest, the type of thing isn't 100% my cup of tea. It's adult oriented rock, and it isn't what I really get off on. But I enjoyed playing on it. It's great, but it's not the kind of thing I'd play at home.

RNRU : John, are there any other goals, musically or otherwise that you'd like to achieve which you haven't already?

JM : I'd like to record an acoustic album. I've done some work in the past couple years with an Indian percussionist, a tabla player. I'm very interested in that Indian sitar music. I've always found it very hypnotic. I just want to keep playing. I'm interested in anything which comes along. I never say no, because you just don't know what could happen. But really, my time is now taken up almost entirely with G.M.T. We view it as a long term project. We're going to keep doing it while it still feels fresh and exciting.

Believe me if you could see us live you'd know what I'm talking about. The album's great, but as a live band it's really something special. There are people who are talking about setting up an American tour, but whether that will happen or not, I don't know. I'm sure if we keep plugging away, eventually that's gonna happen, because we don't intend on letting this one slip away. There's a lot of ground to cover, and although we've been working on this for over a year, for most people it's a brand new thing. But to us it seems like those are old songs now. Bernie and I are already writing new songs, and we're recording in January. But I think some of the songs on the 'Bitter & Twisted' album are going to be around for a long time. Also, it's good to listen to, it's a good sound. I'm very fond of listening to my favorite music on headphones, which cuts out all the crap in the rest of the world. I'm very pleased with the way that it sounds. It's rockin'.

RNRU : Is there anything else that you'd like to say, to all the fans out there?

BT : To anyone whoever bought a Bernie Torme, Gillan, or any other album I've been on, "Thank you.” It's great. It's strange, I'm not widely known, but I have a group of fans who are so caring and enthusiastic, just fantastic people. I really appreciate all of the contacts that I've had, and the love. It's a recompense, it really is. Thank you.

JM : Keep rock music alive. Go to shows and support live music. Otherwise the computers will take over and you'll lose it forever.

For more information on G.M.T. go to www.gmtrocks.com/

For more information on Bernie Torme go to www.bernietorme.com/